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Any theories?

  • Just randomly does anyone have any theories about in- game things?

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    • I don't get what you mean.

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    • Like is there anything you have a theory about in Dark Souls that you want to share?

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    • He's referring to any thoughts we might have on lore that was explained extremely vaguely (or even not at all) in-game. E.g. Is Solaire Gywn's denounced first-born son? Stuff like that. 'Tis the "Lore Discussion" board, after all.

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    • the witch of izalith, i mean whats the mothers name?

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    • Izalith? The Witch?

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    • are u always this clueless?

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    • Bed of Chaos now.

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    • I'm saying that her name might actually be Izalith.

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    • ive been reading theories, and some dude theorised that priscilla was seaths daughter

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    • A lot of people think that. They believe she is either A) A product of Gwynevere being raped by Seath. OR B) One of Seath's experiments gone wrong.

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    • well this got awkward very quickly

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    • Well it makes sense if you think about it. She has scales on her neck I believe. And it could explain why *SPOILERS* the real Gwynevere left Anor Londo *END SPOILERS*. PS come join the chat.

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    • i have joined the chat?

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    • play nice, luckystar...

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    • ive been playin nice?

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    • I'd prefer it if you don't call someone else clueless.

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    • its not like he didnt mind

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    • I don't, been called worse.

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    • see lol, "back to the matter at hand now"

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    • well then you're just lucky that Ghost is a pretty tolerant person. Just be considerate of others, please.

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    • Everyone to the chat, quickly!

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    • ofcourse oh your mighty shiny highniness, forget anythin ever happened

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    • if you want to hear some intersting lore thoughts, check out Epic Name Bro on youtube, he has a Dark Souls lore series.

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    • Oh Epic Name Bro. He has good stuff but he sometimes flies off the handle when it comes to speculation.

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    • There is that one guy too, he does the prepare to cry videos, I think he's called VaatiVidya.

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    • It's a shame that he's become burnt out on Dark Souls. I liked his videos and his speculation. But, of course, it was all speculation.

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    • ENB really got me more into the Dark Souls Universe.

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    • I was brought in by SquiiddishReturns. He's mostly an Assassin's Creed player but he started a Dark Souls playthrough and I thought the game looked amazing. So I got it. Awesome decision.

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    • I bought it as a memento of my first band tour for school. I'd heard about it from a friend, and after seeing it for like 20 bucks cheaper, I was pretty much the "take my money" meme. Totally worth the $47.

      Also had the best video games shopping experience when I bought it, so go figure.

      Whoa, we're really starting to get off-topic, here. Anyway, I personally prefer VaatiVidya's videos.

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    • BACK TO THE LORE: Crow demons: Why are they so disfigured? Could they possibly have tried to become TOO MUCH like Velka?

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    • Well, they [rarely] drop Souvenirs of Reprisal, so perhaps they were servants of Velka, but did a Logan, and tried to become more like her?? Whether they were Pardoners or Blades of the DM, I don't know, as it's speculated that Velka originally led them.

      They were obviously exiled to Ariamis because they were important to some degree.

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    • Like the followers of the dragon covenant?

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    • Cain: Yes, exactly.

      Volknur: I know they drop the Souvenirs. I happen to be farming them right now because I suck at PVP but am going for all miracles acquired trophy. This involves reaching +1 in the Blade of the Darkmoon covenant then subsequently killling Gwyndolin to get the Sunlight Blade.

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    • why u bad at PVP?

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    • Well it's not necessarily that I suck. Everyone else is just good when you're invading as a BoDM. This is because they all have some sort of experience in PVP because Blades only invade people who have been indicted.

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    • the few times I PVPed, it was fairly easy... well, maybe it's because I wasn't a BoDM. I invaded as a darkwraith for a few times, but soon abandoned the covenant.

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    • Here's how a typical BoDM invasion goes: Get the invading world as spirit of vengeance sign.

      Enter world.

      See two sunbros in full giants wearing Mask of the Child and holding Talismans while ninja flipping.

      Host spams estus.

      Get ganked and backstabbed.

      Die. 

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    • Agreed.

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    • but oh my, I never tought it was that screwed up to invade as a BoDM, looking at the  benefits makes it look so easy

      Ha! guess the buff wasn't that worth the price was it?

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    • Oh please I will farm souvenirs off of crows over invading "guilty" players all day. The buff is amazing though so if you want it, definitely get it through farming unless you're amazing at counter ganking.

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    • Now that's a challenge! Gotta practice my parry techniques.

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    • No, it's not the covenant's fault, it's the players who always use the same gear. For example (and to quote Brainwasher), 9 out of 10 people use the Mask of the Child when online, most likely because they saw it on a wiki, and thought "I WANT IT! IT IS SO POWERFUL!!11!" *Sigh*

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    • wait, comic you mentioned full giants, so it's still possible to ninja flip with that set?

      BTW I never cared for that mask, grass crest is my backup.

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    • with proper endurance boost + havel's = ya i believe you still can.

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    • with proper you mean spending almost 80 points only on endurance?

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    • Mask of the mother, more like.

      Anyway I feel that the flip roll (and the fast roll for the matter) is overrated. Medium roll is fast enough for almost any situation.

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    • not rlly, fast rolls make alot of difference, ive been tryin dodgin blows with normal roll but their just 2 seconds too slow

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    • I've PvPed in the Undead Burg and the Kiln for months now, and I can assure you that medium roll is fast enough for almost every situation, including people spamming dark bead. You just have to get used to it. The only time medium roll and move speed is ever an issue is when your opponent is running away from you to use divine blessings.

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    • well i dun pvp much since it gets my heart rate all up cuz i suck a pvp

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    • I dodged most of Artorias's attacks with a medium roll, and that was fine.

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    • I'd like to share something very interesting and it's about something no one seems to talk about and thats the PLAYER CHARACTER. Lore wise as the 'Chosen Unded.' To the point though, both Demons Souls and specific to this case Dark Souls exist in MULTIVERSE WORLDS. Every user creates a player character that follows the story of the Chosen Undead, but in the lore is really a parallel reality to it. Every time you summon or get invaded, the Chosen Undead is actually summoning and being invaded by him/her alternate selves. This is without a doubt true, and is explained by the convolution of spacetime. On that note I believe without a doubt that Manus is infact the Player Character or the Chosen Undead. As both him and the PC can manipulate spacetime. I also find it queer that the Pendant story item seems analogous to Manus Pendant as he goes man and the pendant reminds him of being human again. Or truely reminds him of before he became the Dark Lord. <Continued>

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    • Manus as the PC explains more than it questions and makes relative sense. The Chosen Undead has the ability to interact with it's otherworld selves, Manus being one of them and that road works both ways as he pulls to 'his time'. 

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    • Well that is total speculation that can't be backed up by any factual evidence so...

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    • It's a lore theory so uh... yeah of course it's speculation captain obviass. But is backed up in small open increments just like any other theory, as I did give examples. Multiverse Undead is all obvious at any point to make however. Everyone plays as the Chosen Undead and summons and invades other Chosen Undeads in the same story sequence. Infact multiverse is even covered in Demons Souls to explain the online mechanic in-game. I don't need to quote anything, if you know the game you know the game, if not read up on the stuff on your own time, i'm no DS teacher.

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    • Isn't this thread titled 'any THEORIES?' So share speculation instead of calling out the obvious fact of speculation.

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    • And Dark Souls and Demon's Souls are not connected by anything. At all. There's no connection between the two games lore-wise. And theories aren't only speculation. They actually have to have something to back them up with.

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    • Are you an idiot? Clearly.. I never said they were related and know they are of no story relation but that do share MANY parallels and in that way ARE connected. Read the damn summon item descripts as well as the items pertaining to Manus, as well as the pendant connection. There are plenty of allusions to this theory unless you just lack the ability to comprehend anything. I really don't care to argue though, found the idea worth sharing, take it or leave it.

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    • And now you're resorting to insults... I'm not even gonna bother responding to you anymore.

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    • uckystarz103 wrote:
      the witch of izalith, i mean whats the mothers name?


      that's a good question. I don't think the game content ever specifies her name. She was a witch, they show us that much in the Opening, but was Izalith her name, or her home town? We know that Izalith was a city, before it was destroyed and turned into the Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith. I look at it like this: she was already a powerful witch when she found the Lord Soul, that's supported by the fact that she already had followers in the Daughters of Chaos. It's likely they were her actual daughters, since the Orange Charred Ring mentions the birth of a son, although the Daughters of Chaos may have accepted others into their circle. The Demon Firesage was a student of Izalith's fire sorcery, for example. So, it seems likely to me that "The Witch of Izalith" was a title, like "The Queen of England."

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    • I'm pretty sure they are really her daughters given Quelana's death dialogue "Farewell, my mother, my sisters...". It's interesting that Quelana doesn't mention her brother in that dialogue though.

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    • I agree that's most likely the case, but I can still speculate (devil's advocate versus my own argument) that if they were not bound by blood, they may have had a "sisterhood" in their witches' circle.

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    • SPECULATION WARNING!!
      To me, Ceaseless Discharge" is a very odd name. The two halves of it seem to counteract each other, as "Ceaseless" means "constant and unending", whilst "Discharge", in this context, means "telling someone they can or must leave", thus meaning the end of something.

      Perhaps he was exiled from Izalith as punishment for some crime he committed? To an extent, this would explain why Quelana makes no mention of him, as he would most likely have been excommunicated from her family after exile.

      It may also be possible that Quelana, Quelaag and the other "daughters" of the Witch were not her actual daughters, but rather 'adopted'. Using the example of Catholicism, the Pope is the "Father" of the Church, the clergy below him are his "sons". Perhaps the Daughters of Chaos was like this, where, upon joining the Daughters, they were considered to be "daughters" of the Witch?

      Assuming this is true, when the Ceaseless Discharge was born, he would of had no siblings, thus, the Daughters would not have considered him a brother.

      This is pretty much 100% pure speculation, but these are just some thoughts.

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    • I just figured he was called Ceaseless Discharge because he is ceaselessly discharging lava from himself.

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    • ... I forgot about that.

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    • 208.180.203.191 wrote:
      I'd like to share something very interesting and it's about something no one seems to talk about and thats the PLAYER CHARACTER. Lore wise as the 'Chosen Unded.' To the point though, both Demons Souls and specific to this case Dark Souls exist in MULTIVERSE WORLDS. Every user creates a player character that follows the story of the Chosen Undead, but in the lore is really a parallel reality to it. Every time you summon or get invaded, the Chosen Undead is actually summoning and being invaded by him/her alternate selves. This is without a doubt true, and is explained by the convolution of spacetime. On that note I believe without a doubt that Manus is infact the Player Character or the Chosen Undead. As both him and the PC can manipulate spacetime. I also find it queer that the Pendant story item seems analogous to Manus Pendant as he goes man and the pendant reminds him of being human again. Or truely reminds him of before he became the Dark Lord. <Continued>

      The first half is substantiated. But that by no means means that Manus, who can control space-time, is the player. Leeroy and the Chosen Undead are different beings, but can be both summoned and also invade. There is no proof whatsoever that the only being in the game that can manipulate time (as in, use soapstones) is the Chosen Undead. It is shown in multiple cases that many other characters can use soapstones, invade, and interact from a distant era (be it past or future).

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    • If you ask me, every single mystery in Dark Souls can be answered with one simple peice of logic.

      It's a video game.

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    • That's like saying that every single mystery of life can be answered with one simple piece of logic: it's life.

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    • Brainwasher5 wrote:
      That's like saying that every single mystery of life can be answered with one simple piece of logic: it's life.

      Exactly.

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    • Hit the nail on the head there. :)

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    • No, then it's just a meaningless statement that doesn't prove or disprove anything.

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    • every mystery of life can also be answered with "just because" or "it is god's will". it comes down to whether or not the individual is satisfied with such answers.

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    • I would be extremely disappointed with anyone who would be satisfied with such answers.

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    • LOL! As would I. I think my favorite example was, when arguing the relative age of the earth, someone's response was "the devil put the dinosaur bones in the ground to confuse us." Seriously. That's a conversation that just cannot continue.

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    • I am a purist when it comes to Dark Souls lore. I very much dislike speculating past things that aren't heavily hinted at. From has said that they designed the story of the game to allow the player to create his or her own story. Some people like to stretch things extremely far (e.g. Manus is the chosen undead, relationship between Seath and Gwynevere, or my personal favorite, ENB's theory that Andre is the firstborn sun), and I like to let things stop at what the world tells us explicitly. It's an insatiable thirst for more lore and more depth that keeps people crafting these theories, so that's by no means a bad thing. With that said:

      I think Solaire is the Firstborn Son. There is overwhelming evidence that he is, and a handful of shoddy evidence that he isn't.

      I think Manus is the Furtive Pygmy. Being referred to as the primeval human is enough evidence alone. Manus being the father of the Abyss (which is utter darkness), the furtive pygmy and all of man being branded with the darksign and being being born from the dark creates a pervading theme of darkness associated with man/humanity. Manus etymology refers to the hand (a giant one at that), and is analogous to humanity (manuscript - written by hand, manipulate - modify by hand). Kaathe is pro-human and pro age of dark, and (presumably) persuaded Oolacile to release Manus.

      In both Solaire and Manus cases, the game is basically screaming at you that they are the Firstborn Sun, and the Furtive Pygmy respectively. To come to the conclusion that they aren't is to really really want to believe that they aren't.

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    • Except the devs have explicitly said that the Gwyn's firstborn was not included in the final version of Dark Souls.

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    • And they have explicitly said that Andre was originally intended to be related to Gwyn, but that was scrapped and he was taken out of the main storyline.

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    • Okay Lets just move this into a new direction using mythology and crazy in a pot..... Gwyn has his son of war. loses archive which makes dad mad, dad rids him of his title and removes him from family tree. What if and this is a big what if, this son we know nothing of aparently has a kid with some woman he loved that was a human or giant before he was erased from the family tree? There is a statue that has a child holding a straight sword and an giant woman. and this child who in return is the son of war--- Knight solaire! lets say knight solaire for some strange reason finds out he has powers... he is like the abomination hercules and doesn't know why. so he volunteers himself to the undead curse because by the sound of it he wasn't branded..... So half demi god solaire "if everyone just thinks for a minute" Goes on a quest to find his sun... OR which he means His Families past. He basically fights his way through everything and survives. he can walk through lava, fat boy and slim "Orns and smuggs" Kills dragons and shoots fuckin lightnening like good old grandpa Gwyn. Its just an idea and if you want to bash me, call me- Rob.

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    • To not get confused everyone, someone else would need to light the bonfire if the original undead is the same one in dark souls 2... or he end up like gwyn..... extra crispy

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    • I may be a little behind on the interviews, but I thought DSII was not going to be another undead story.

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    • Ah thanks i didn't know that, "In military its hard to keep up on franchises and games!" But It would be a great "I didn't see that twist"

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    • really? in that initial announcement trailer the narrator says something like: "You are of the Undead. Forever without hope..."etc. etc.

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    • I guess I really am behind on the new game. All I remembered was, during an interview / first look, they said the main character was "cursed" and looking for a cure or a release from the curse. I will have to watch the trailer/interview again. Thanks!

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    • Beign undead is considered a curse, the curse of the undead LOL

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    • While undeath is a curse, not all curses are undeath.

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    • Well the curse does make you look like a raisin.... "The curse of the RaisenBread" Succumb to the toast!

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    • I actually really like the idea of Solaire being the son of the firstborn. It would explain his ability to use the same abilities as Gwyn (in terms of lightning bolts). It would certainly explain that ability and the fact that he can become hollow, in that he is essentially human, as the firstborn was stripped of his god-hood. Plus the fact that you can summon him to help fight Gwyn, who would be his grandfather who abandoned his father. Which might explain his "search for his own Sun." Perhaps he was on a mission from the Firstborn to find a way to restore his god status.


      In other news, the idea that the player character in Dark Souls II (which is obviously a prequel, as bonfires still exist), is the same character you play in Dark Souls isn't all that crazy of an idea. Especially if its a prequel. Based on the designs of the Hud (specifically the absence of the Humanity Counter) it could be infered that either the system has been removed or that the character isn't dead, i.e. not cursed with undeath. Therefore he/she wouldn't need humanity to keep their sanity. Or, the character is undead, the system has been changed, and that it is before the character was sent to the Undead Asylum.

      Also it's obviously set in a different area. Evedenced by the newish gameplay footage and the locations they revealed, which can't be seen in any of the overhead shots of Lordran/Anor Londo.

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    • Anyone believe that the character in DSII might be the firstborn?

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    • The game was mentioned to be a direct sequel by one of the developers (I've linked the interview so many times in these forums, too lazy to do it again.)

      In the announcement trailer, the narrator states: "You are of the Undead. Forever without hope, forever without light."

      Yes, it was also mentioned by the developers that the game takes place in a very different area than Lordran.

      If the player is the firstborn, this would remove the ability to customize gender. An unlikely change.

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    • Sorry for being so late to this comment but I just could not resist: The Crow Demons are none other than... you guessed it... the Dark Souls variant of the Hagravens. If you dont know what those are, then good sirs (and ladies) you dont know RPG games.

      I'll give you a hint: its on the rim of the sky.

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    • Skyrim came after, so the Hagravens are the Skyrim variants of the Crow Demons to be precise.

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    • look up harpies that is what they are both based off

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    • Well...Hagravens are more humanoid, but the Crow Demons actually don't really look like harpies IMO

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    • Perhaphs because it a sin to kill Pricilla she might have an apperance in the sequel, and as she was intended to be in the last game be an ally for the player charcter, and maybe even Solaire will show up with her on a new quest....maybe not being undead and depending on the caniocal ending maybe not...

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    • The developers stated that there isn't going to be any NPC from the previous game unfortunately.

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    • Ah well just a thought, maybe some DLC to tie up lose ends in a trip to the now barren completely bereft of life lordran or one that has been restored to life thank to the end of the undead curse or maybe a land filled with undead savagely murdering the unlife out of each other like always.

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    • Cosmicsilver wrote:
      Well it makes sense if you think about it. She has scales on her neck I believe. And it could explain why *SPOILERS* the real Gwynevere left Anor Londo *END SPOILERS*. PS come join the chat.


      Personally I think that theory is rubbish, there is no evidence that Seath and Gwynevere even Met, let alone had a romantic relationship and concieved a child. Second, Given Seath's goal to become immortal via the scales of immortality I doubt he was interested in sex or romance. Third, in the event that Seath was stupid enough to try raping Gwynevere (who is stated to have left because the Age of Fire was ending) he would get no peace whatsoever from the BODM, and especially not from the Princess Guard, they'd be scaling the walls of his fortress and burning down his Archives, he'd likely be under constant attack from them. Finally, I doubt that giants and dragon type creatures can actually reproduce with each other, their biologies are too different for such a thing.

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    • 98.28.88.47 wrote:
      Cosmicsilver wrote:
      Well it makes sense if you think about it. She has scales on her neck I believe. And it could explain why *SPOILERS* the real Gwynevere left Anor Londo *END SPOILERS*. PS come join the chat.
      ...

      Also if you consider the fact that Seath never had any scales to begin with, why would Priscilla have any? This makes me consider high school genetics i.e. recessive and dominant genes and makes me think that... well... they're too different to successfully... well you know.

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    • Considering Seathe's involvement with helping her father overthrow the Everlasting Dragons, I'd say there would have been plenty of oppurtunity to meet. And there wouldn't necessarily have to be a romantic relationship between the two. You can't think of Seathe as a regular person in this regard. Now this is all major speculation, but perhaps in Seathe's desperation to find immortality, he believed that by concieving a child there would be a chance of it developing scales of immortality of it's own. With a living specimen on hand, his research would've been greatly bolstered. But as you said, their biologies are different, thus Priscilla was only a half-breed, and didn't develop the scales that Seathe needed. Being of no real use to him, Seathe abandons her as he never would have truly cared about her. Or maybe the exact opposite. Maybe Seathe saw her as a useful subject, but that she was taken away from him.

      As for why and how she came to the painted world, I don't know. But two things cannot be denied. 1) Priscilla's home, the painted world, hangs inside Anor Londo protected for generatons by the painting guardians. 2)Priscilla is most certainly half-dragon, and Seathe is the only living dragon (barring the Stone Dragon) remaining.

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    • Maybe she's just another Seath experiment?

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    • Possible, but that wouldn't explain how she got into the painted world. If she was the daughter of one of the gods, that would be one thing. They would care about her, but would still fear her for her Lifehunt abilities. If she was just another experiment of Seathe's, they'd probably just kill her. That they took time to lock her away somewhere instead, even knowing what kind of danger she could be tells me that they at least cared about her as a person.

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    • Well she isn't alone inside that painting. In fact it's filled with "kind inhabitants"

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    • Dark Jeto wrote:
      Possible, but that wouldn't explain how she got into the painted world. If she was the daughter of one of the gods, that would be one thing. They would care about her, but would still fear her for her Lifehunt abilities. If she was just another experiment of Seathe's, they'd probably just kill her. That they took time to lock her away somewhere instead, even knowing what kind of danger she could be tells me that they at least cared about her as a person.


      Or perhaps they'd tryed killing her before and failed, and were too afraid to try it again, and she might not have been loved even if she was a child of a god. Imagine you're Gwyn, or Flan, or perhaps Gwynevere herself, and she's been raped by a deformed dragon and given birth to an abomination (playing devil's advocate here) who possesses a freakish power (stealing the life energy of others), it's possible, perhaps even likely that the gods banished her there out of anger and shame.

      Now for another thought that crossed my mind on why Priscilla is likely not Seath and Gwynevere's bastard. The Gwynevere we see is an illusion created by Gwyndolin to retain a sense of awe and power in Anor Londo, considering the size of Gwyn and Gwyndolin who are both taller than humans, but not necessarily giant sized, I doubt that Gwynevere is nearly as huge in reality.

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    •    Hmmm... I wonder why their was a flame for Gwyn, Nito, Izalith, and pygmy. Its possible a double agent dragon created the flame so the silly gods destroy the dragons then after that the dragon recreates them so they can live in a brighter world. A warrior hears about this and travels to the Mansion of the Dragons. As he finally gets to a large room with a Everlasting Dragon creating a picture, the dragon reveals its name to the warrior; Ariamas.

         The dragon is most likely recreating the mansion of the dragons with dangerous creatures ( "This land is Peaceful".) and the inhabitant where all of animals kill anything that enters ( "Inhabitants kind".)

      It is possible Ariamas made this world to sfore his weapons to use against the gods if they succeeded in recreating the first flame ( witch of Izalith...) but everything seemed to work out for the dragon. My theory on Dark souls 2 c:

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    • Except for the fact that The Painted World of Ariamas is stated to be a prison to hold anything that could threaten the Lords... Not only that, but Ariamas is never seen in the game, nor are there hints as to who/what he was. Finally, DS2 is stated to have nothing to do with the events in DS, nor it's past, and thus cannot be a prequel.

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    •    Im just saying that the silly dragon created the first flame so that the gods create a giant castle and plenty of food for dinner (Human).

         I mean Priscilla must love the jail how she could just jump down the platform like the chosen undead, GREATEST FREAKIN SECURITY EVER.

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    • Well there are the painting guardians waiting for her outside

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    • Priscilla has the power of invisibility...

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    • You assume that she has the power to leave in the first place. Or would want to. Just because the Chosen Undead can travel between the Painted World and reality, doesn't mean Priscilla can. And perhaps the guardians aren't her jailors, but are her protectors. She seems quite content with the world and its inhabitants, and even subtley hints it being more of a sanctuary.

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    • DisHonorableClown wrote:
         Im just saying that the silly dragon created the first flame so that the gods create a giant castle and plenty of food for dinner (Human).

       I mean Priscilla must love the jail how she could just jump down the platform like the chosen undead, GREATEST FREAKIN SECURITY EVER.

      What dragon would be stupid enough to do that? There has been no dragon that would ever do something so completely ridiculous in the game.

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    • Its possible but unlikely i mean before the age of fire there was pretty much nothing left over for the dragons so the plan was probaly create the fire, let the gods kill the dragons, after all humans are removed from the caves in put into the lands up above, the dragon begins to recreate the dragons or resurrect them, the major gods are all dead leaving only the minor gods are far away in other lands, and the dragons have food to eat which are humans, and then this where dark souls 2 comes in. We all get hungry.

      Remember this is just a theory :)

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    • The dragons were made out of stone, they didn't need to eat anything. -_-'

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    • Yeah she may be invisible, but she is too damn big not to be noticed, she wouldn't fit in the door to get out LOL

      As far as I recall they just had "sone plates of immortality", in fact the Stone Dragon actually bleeds and has fur.

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    • The Stone dragon could just be a descendant of the Ancient Dragons, not the real thing, though he is pretty close.

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    • Well Domhnall states that "Rumour it may be, but I have heard of a surviving ancient dragon who resides in this land." However comparing the Stone Dragon to the ancient one in the intro, he doesn't resemble them that much.

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    • 98.28.88.47 wrote:
      The Stone dragon could just be a descendant of the Ancient Dragons, not the real thing, though he is pretty close.


      Even if he is only a descendant, that doesn't mean he lacks the scales of immortality. We can clearly see that the Stone Dragon can't be killed, no matter how much he is attacked.

      And LORD SADDLER is right, they weren't made of stone, they were covered in stone scales of immortality. Lord Gwynn and his knights used the sunlight spear miracle to peel the scales off the dragons, while Nito spread the poisonous miasma to their exposed skin, and the Witch of Izalith and her Daughters of Chaos created massive firestorms. If they were made of stone, they wouldn't bleed or be capable of being poisoned.

      That said, I do not agree with DisHonorableClown's theory anymore than you. There is no evidence to imply he is correct. And considering that the first humans, giants, and lords didn't come out of the dark until AFTER the first flame and the Everlasting Dragons were living just fine before then says to me that their natural diet didn't consist of humans.

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    • LORD SADDLER wrote: Well Domhnall states that "Rumour it may be, but I have heard of a surviving ancient dragon who resides in this land." However comparing the Stone Dragon to the ancient one in the intro, he doesn't resemble them that much.

      Perhaps he's just wrong. The Dragon Greatsword description says "This sword, one of the rare dragon weapons, came from the tail of the stone dragon of Ash Lake, descendant of the ancient dragons." It's possible Domhnall is just mistaken about him being a survivor.

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    • Not to mention that there is no way that the dragons could've known humans would even exist until either during the war or when the Age of Fire began. (and almost all of the Ancient dragons were dead by then)

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    • Humans and gods were kind of assholes then, weren't they? I mean, the Everlasting Dragons are just sitting around in their grey unchanging world, perfectly content. Then suddenly humans, giants, and gods come out of nowhere, one of their own betrays them, and now they're all, or atleast mostly, extinct. 

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    • The problem is, we aren't given their motivations. Seath has one, but the others? Why would they want to kill the dragons?

      I don't think they were a threath, take the Stone Dragon, chillin' there and not reacting even if you cut his tail.

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    • It may have been more simple than you think. The entire world was grey, unchanging, and ruled by Everlasting Dragons. Humans, giants, and gods represented change, and end to the lifestyle that the dragons had become accustomed to. The mortals did not want to stay in the dark and the dragons didn't want to give up the world they came to call theirs. When two opposing ideas come together, conflict is inevitable. Both wanted their ways of life, and both were willing to fight for it. I'm not sure there really is a right or wrong of it when it comes to this kind of thing. The mortals were probably terrified of the world they had come from. So much so, that the gods are willing to sacrifice Gwynn's soul and that of the Chosen Undead (and presumable countless more) just to unnaturally extend the Age of Fire, and delay the Age of Dark. A world of grey was probably a preferable step up for them. The Stone Dragon probably realizes that he is the last (or one of the last) of his kind, and is quite content to live the rest of his immortal life in the Ash Lake, that looks a lot like the Ancient world.

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    • Eh... i was just trying to combined how the first flame started then try combining rest of the stuff but the dragons must've knew about humans because humans were born from the dark and so when they left the caverns and caves the dragons attacked them (i guess?) and so the humans hid underground, how'll come gywn new about the dragons, im pretty sure he wouldn't kill dragons that he could of used as a valuable resource such as transportation other than that a dragon with a motive wanted to rule the dragons or just be chief made to where the dragons were betrayed by a lesser dragon named seath and then after a while by using secrecy and hiding his location the giants would soon fall. This is very similar to Darth Bane's plan on how he destroyed the sith by using the jedi and then after a few generations later the sith dominated jedi with Palpatine at the throne of the sith

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    • Couple of problems with this. First, you assume Gwyn would even want to enslave (because that's exactly what you're talking about him doing. Using dragons as resources and tools.) dragons rather than just wanting the giant immortal creatures who probably refused to give up their home. Second, you assume that there was a conspiracy behind the entire war which there isn't even a hint of being anything other than two sides waging a war. And finally, this isn't Star Wars, even the analogy you're trying to make is skipping over several details.

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    • Obviously this has nothing to do with star wars the theory thing has similarity with how everything happen and not only that this is just a theory on how the flame was started unless it was just some undead who rubbed stick together and got a fire which granted them powers that defeated the dragons.

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    • I'm guessing this is a mistery as: how can Nito be the first of the dead, but he's made by different skeletons? LOL

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    • There is no evidence that supports that the gods wanted anything else to do with the dragons other than to kill them, and to be blunt such a plan is actually pretty silly, since the dragon like creatures we encounter throughout the game are a far cry from their ancestors in both intelligence and power.

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    • LORD SADDLER wrote:
      I'm guessing this is a mistery as: how can Nito be the first of the dead, but he's made by different skeletons? LOL

      Maybe he started out as just one skeleton thing but needed new parts to sustain his body due to the nature of his Lord Soul? Perhaps it was continually decaying him even as he used it?

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    • I really don't understeand what "first of the dead" means. How did he died? It waeren't the dragons because the war wasn't still going on, it wasn't age because I suppose he was immortal as the other "gods"...moreover he acquired the lord soul AFTER he became the first of the dead. We actually need more informations than just a few sentences in the intro. Maybe I should revisit weapon descriptions and stuff

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    • LORD SADDLER wrote:
      I really don't understeand what "first of the dead" means. How did he died? It waeren't the dragons because the war wasn't still going on, it wasn't age because I suppose he was immortal as the other "gods"...moreover he acquired the lord soul AFTER he became the first of the dead. We actually need more informations than just a few sentences in the intro. Maybe I should revisit weapon descriptions and stuff

      It doesn't look like there is any explanation for his title or condition anywhere, as if he's just always been like that, but that can't be true since in order to be dead you have to have been alive... unless his Lord Soul's description is any kind of clue. It says that much of it has been offered to Death, so perhaps he commited suicide and rose again due to the Lord Soul's power?

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    • The title is probaly meaning chief of the dead and a further question is how did he claim the soul when he is dead?

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    • OMG zombie! Kill it with fire! 

      He somehow came back to life using...magic? He probably mastered necromancy (somehow) and then used on himself, that's my guess.

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    • I suppose "Dead" refer to a race or species but necromancy sounds more sensible (nothing is sensible to begin with though). Thus if you are animals (rats, human) marked by Darksign you are undead, you are dead and revived you are "dead".

      And I agree with Clown, the "First" in his name is probably leader of some sort rather than actually being the first as in order. It is confusing only because he didn't bring any troops in the war against Dragon as opposed to Gwyn and the Witches.

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    • From, why you no explain Nito!?

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    • Or perhaps it means that he was the first dead to attain a form of sentience and autonomy. It can be assumed that the skeletons walking around in the Catacombs and Tomb of Giants belongs to either Nito directly or the necromancers using his power. Perhaps this can be attributed to the the Lord Soul he recieved being the Lord Soul of Death, where as the Witch of Izalith had recieved the Lord Soul of Life.

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    • 1. i read top to bottom. Licky don't be an asshole to Brain, please.

      2. Crossbreed Priscilla is Seathe's daughter and Gwynevere's daughter. Gwynevere left Anor Londo because the first flame was fading and she retreated from Lordran.

      3. Priscilla was locked in the painting because she, and many other enemies in that god forsaken world, are 'abominations' and are not meant to be in that world of Lordran. 1/4 human-dragon babies arent excactly normal.

      4. Anyone else disgrace Brain and i'lll....i'llll......I'LLL...... cry myself to sleep.......

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    • Do you have proof that Priscilla is related to them though?

      (response to 3.) I think she'd be 1/2 dragon if the Gwynevere/Seath theory were true.

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    • Priscilaa doesnt have scales for crying out loud, she has fur. And seathe doesnt have scales either! he has hair/fur.....in....places on his body.......like his eyebrows

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    • That doesn't really mean that they're related though, they just have certain similarities.

      Consider this: The Gwynevere that we meet in Anor Londo is an illusion created by Gwyndolin to retain a sense of power and awe so that the Chosen Undead would go along with his desires. Knowing this, let's take a look at Gwyn, Gwyndolin, and Gwynevere in the game, yes, Gwyn is bigger than your normal human or undead, and Gwyndolin is certainly taller, but neither of them are nearly as big as Gwynevere's illusion, so it's at least 99% likely that Gwynevere is definitely not giant sized, meaning that if Seath tried to... make babies with her then he'd likely kill her in the process.

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    • Priscilla has scales. Look at he picture here at Crossbreed Priscilla. You can see the scales on her neck. Though this doesn't mean that scalelessness is genetically transferable. She could've easily taken after her mother more than Seath is all.

      And perhaps Gwynevere WAS that tall. If you look at the walls around Anor Londo, you can find portraits of Gwynevere that were left behind. She doesn't look that different between them and the illusion. And while the Gwynevere you find might be an illusion, that giant couch she is lying on isn't. Clearly it was intended for someone with status, considering that it's basically in a throne room. 

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    • Gwyndolin could've just had someone like the giant blacksmith craft it for that purpose though, and the pictures may also just be to make the illusion more convincing.

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    • So instead of just creating the illusion of the couch, or just making a different illusion altogether, Gwyndolin had the blacksmith craft a massive couch, had someone make paintings of Gwynevere lying on said couch, hide them in different rooms all throughout Anor Londo to make them appear natural, all in an attempt to make it more believable that Gwynevere...is big? Assuming that the blacksmith is capable of creating royal furniture and not just weapon/armor smithing, and that Gwyndolin could find an artist considering Anor Londo was abandoned by the gods at this point, you really think that Gwyndolin would go through all that trouble simply to exaggerate how tall his sister was?

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    • Gwyn's tomb is gigantic, yet he's not that big

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    • Perhaps Gwynevere's mother was taller. Maybe a giant. Or perhaps she was just tall because she was just tall. Maybe Gwyn was taller before he was turned into the Lord of Cinder. Or perhaps just the fact that they are "gods" means that the normal rules of physiology don't apply. Gwyndolin has snakes for feet, but you don't see that on Gwyn either. Maybe Gwynevere could change her height. All I'm saying is that just because Gwyn and Gwyndolin weren't giants doesn't mean Gwynevere was shorter too. I just don't buy the idea that they went out of their way making such unnecessary changes to Anor Londo just to fake the idea of a height difference.

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    • Well, you know...you could sum up in 3 words why Gwynever is that big: Amazing-Chest-Ahead

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    • Maybe, still, I don't think that Priscilla is related to Gwynevere, there would've been a huge backlash if they'd done the deed.

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    • This make since if priscilla is related to gwynevere. If silly gwyn forced gwynevere to have a child with seath then its no wonder she abandoned gwyn and left with flann and not only that gwynevere and priscilla has the same voice actress but obviously you guys are just going to argue that doesnt apply to anything but shit.

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    • excactly what AWC is saying, seathe and gwynevere did the deed and there was a huge backlash, priscilla was locked in the painting as an abomination and gwynevere left seathe in shame, moving on to Flann as the fire was smouldering.

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    • if flame god flann is the god of fire, why cant we just chuck a bunch of kindling and fuel on the first gflame and have Flann set it alight? we need marshmallows

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    • The Age of Marshmellows.

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    • DisHonorableClown wrote:
      This make since if priscilla is related to gwynevere. If silly gwyn forced gwynevere to have a child with seath then its no wonder she abandoned gwyn and left with flann and not only that gwynevere and priscilla has the same voice actress but obviously you guys are just going to argue that doesnt apply to anything but shit.

      Well, yeah, having the same actress doesn't mean anything, pretty much every voice actor in the game has worked on more than just one character, doesn't mean that all of the characters are somehow related to each other.

      Gwyn isn't silly, you gotta know your stuff if you're a god/king/ruler of the world, if Gwyn were a moron then one of the other gods would've taken over, with or without his Lord Soul. Also, why do you assume that Gwyn had a hand in any chance that Gwynevere and Seathe got together? He likely trusted Seathe about as far as he could throw him and only allied with him because he had information on the dragons.

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    • He trusted him enough to grant him with Dukedom, the Archives, and even a piece of his own soul. Still, I don't see how/why Gwyn would have a hand in something like that. Maybe Gwynevere just found Seath attractive.

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    • He rewarded Seath, that doesn't mean that he trusted him.

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    • A "reward" would've been letting him live. You don't give people you don't trust dukedom over your lands, a limitless supply of knowledge, and half of one of the most powerful souls in the entire world.

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    • You do if he is the grandfather of sorcery and his research can benefit you as well.

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    • And what exactly did Seath do to benefit them?

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    • Why would someone with high power like gwynevere fall in love with a a dragon that only had tentacles as legs and is naked? She falls in love with flann if she loved seathe she would of stayed in lordran but she fled with flann.

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    • Love wouldn't need to be a factor. There a plenty of more tragic scenarios that could've happened. I say tragic, because tragedy is a commonly recurring motif in Dark Souls, and therefore could be more likely.

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    • Actually you're right everyone in dark souls has a tragic past and future. Gwynevere tragic is having a child with a deformed dragon with her silly father acknowledging this just to keep the deal. Gwynevere and priscilla both have elegant speech so does gwyndolin, i dont know of anyone else who has elegant speech but im guessing other people speak the same way. Did anyone notice that theres a statue of gwynevere infront of the painted world of ariamas?

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    • Yeah, I did notice that statue. I think there might be others of her elsewhere, though. It's interesting that Gwyn's statue is depicted as being larger than Gwynevere's. And I think I remember there being an empty space to the other side of Gwyn, presumably where his fist born once had a statue.

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    • Gwynevere's statue could simply be smaller in order to fit on the pedestal. If they scaled the statue to size, it would take up the entire center of any of the rooms. And if the intent was to display Gwyn and his children, it would be easier to do it the way it was done.

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    • Everyone except Domnhall of Zena, I don't recall him ever going insane or hollow at all and he seems to take being undead in stride.

      Speaking of, does anyone know what "siwmae" means? I know it's a Welsh greeting but can never get a translation.

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    • Dark Jeto wrote:
      And what exactly did Seath do to benefit them?


      A lot, actually, he's the one who told them about the Scales of Immortality and presumably helped in the battle since he was seen sitting on a pile of dead dragons, he probably also taught some giants and humans sorcery, which likely also helped in the war.

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    • In dark souls 2 the description of the mansion of the dragons it says there were dragons tested and experimented on. Immortality? No you can just go undead and find a major purpose (like guarding your McDonalds big mac). In the demo you can see a undead dragon attacking the player then dying, but the major question is how are these dragons coming back to life? Possible surviving everlasting dragon trying to raise his fellow brethrens to strive vengeance at the four lords causing the outcasted first born of gwyn to either regain his place as a lord or join the dragons and destroy the remaining lords (its very possible its gwyns son by the fact gwyn made the bonfires meaning you can extinguish them by your knowledge with the bonfires).

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    • I doubt that those zombie dragons have something to do with the world of Lordran

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    • They do in dark souls 2 demo footage a guy gets attacked by an skeletal dragon then it dies.

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    • 98.28.88.47 wrote:
      Dark Jeto wrote:
      And what exactly did Seath do to benefit them?

      A lot, actually, he's the one who told them about the Scales of Immortality and presumably helped in the battle since he was seen sitting on a pile of dead dragons, he probably also taught some giants and humans sorcery, which likely also helped in the war.

      We're talking about AFTER the war. Not during. The war is over, the Everlasting dragons defeated, they could have just let Seath leave and never dealt with him again. Instead, they make him a duke, give him half a lord soul, and basically turn their heads to all the messed up things he did. You don't give such benefits to people if you don't trust them.

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    • DisHonorableClown wrote:
      They do in dark souls 2 demo footage a guy gets attacked by an skeletal dragon then it dies.


      That's not exactly a huge plot point though, if that were the case then the rats have a conspiracy to rule the world as well. :P

      @ Dark Jeto: He must've done something after the war, perhaps he continued to teach people sorcery up until the Dragon School of Vinheim was founded or maybe he had other subjects of research before he went mad, maybe he helped the people of Oolacile learn their sorceries.

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    • There are no records that he did anything beneficial after the war. Everything we've seen suggests that he was completely consumed in his research, with his only interaction with the world being what his golems and channelers brought him. Just because he's considered the Grandfather of Sorcery didn't mean he taught anyone else how to use them. It just means that he is likely the source of Sorceries as we know them today.

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    • Souls are the source of sorcery, and Seathe is likely the grandfather of sorcery because created modern sorcery.

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    • Wait..souls? Where is it stated?

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    • Guys keep the discussion PG, tensions are running a bit high on this thread.

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    • Aftenshnoshnikr wrote:
      Guys keep the discussion PG, tensions are running a bit high on this thread.

      What are you talking about? Things are relatively civil here.

      @Jeto: From what I can gather both from spell descriptions such as crystal magic weapon, soul arrow, soul spear, etc, as well as certain dialogues with Big Hat Logan, it seems that souls are the basis of sorcery, and even that crystals are basically souls given physical form. As evidence for this claim, I present Crystal Magic Weapon's description as quoted: "Sorcery boosted by the knowledge Logan gained at the Regal Archives, High magic+crystallization: right weapon.

      Logan's trials were succesful, and the crystal medium faciliated a stronger bond between weapon and soul."

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    • the last two lines pretty much just state that through the use of sorcery, over time your 'soul' gains a stronger connection to sorcery and improves its versatility. not really reinforcing it is a bond, but more like a catalyst or something similar.

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    • what i mean is something like the

      "one cannot exist without the other" type of connection/bond.

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    • Yes, they are called "Soul Sorceries" several times through the game, and it is heavily implied that they use the soul in their casting. That was never in question. What does that have to do with Seath or his post-war activities?

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    • Well, assuming that he was after the Scales of Immortality and his obvious use of crystals in a lot of what he does, it could be that the Scales of Immortality were to the dragons what the Lord Souls were to Gwyn and his ilk, but in a different form. Ultimately, Seathe's research wasn't just about the Scales, but about the very nature of souls, contributing to the study of sorcery and allowing sorcerers like Logan to study them and gain power. I know that's a LOT of speculation, but it just doesn't seem right that a dragon with Seathe's intellect would just stay in his Archives and not take at least one pupil.

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    • He kidnapped and experimented on random people that his Channelers and crystal golems brought back without any signs of mercy or remorse. I think the idea of selflessly sharing his knowledge for the betterment of someone other than himself is beyond him. Just because he's intellegent, doesn't mean he would have an innate desire to teach others.

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    • I didn't say that he would teach people out of the kindness of his heart, he likely could've asked for something in return (like helping him with his research or building those golems or something.)

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    • Does the game ever explicitly state that Seath created the golems? It would make sense, since they are made of crystal and most of them are found within his domain, I just don't recall whether or not it confirms it anywhere.

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    • It looks like he did since he seems to be the only one who can control them and their purpose seems to mostly be for capturing subjects for experimentation. Although since he's a dragon he might not have been able to make them himself, perhaps he ordered his channelers to do it for him?

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    • going back to what the AWC said, seathe did have one, although not official, pupil. Big Hat Logan. Although not of his own will and not intentional, had Big Hat Logan survived his ordeal in the Archives, he would be the one to hand down knowledge of the crystal sorceries.

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    • @Daifukkatsu, well he created the moonlight butterflies(fact), of item description, so if he could create this creatures he could do the golems, too.

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    • Alot of good theories on this board. 

      The one about Manus being the Chosen undead was something I never thought of kudos.  Would make the pendant as a starting gift make a lot more sense. 

      Priscilla i am leaning more towards being an expirament than gywnevere's daughter (Although maybe she is velka's daughter?  Lots of Velka related things in that world). 

      One that i had posted on another page was the Primordial Crystal.  Was it a remnant of the Dragons age?  Or is it something Seathe found himself?  I cant remember.  If it is something Seathe found himself did he need to be cyrstal before it affected him,  if not he kinda crystalized himeself for no reason right?

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    • He stole it from the dragons, Big Hat talks about it when you found him in the archive

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    • As Saddler said it's a relic from the Dragons that Seethe stole, apparently it was partly responsible for their immortality along with the scales, though other than those bits of data there isn't much else on it.

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    • Well I think scales gave them immortality, that crystal held some kind of magic power that Seethe used to gain immortality aswell

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    • why does seathe keep it in such an open place for such a fragile crystal? he shoulda mixed it with cereal and eaten it or hide it inside of the walls or something. its like you got the very first copy of the dark souls book and you dont wanna read it or let anything damage it,


      so you put it in the middle of a cafe on the floor where everyone has a tradition to messily spill the meals tha they eat

      bottom line: its gonna happen. he left his crystal in a place anyone could touch it if they tried hard enough.

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    • also i looked at much of the arguements on this thread, if theres one thing i do know about beliefs and lore and legends etc

      it is

      "You only believe in something because you want it to be true. You only disagree with a belief/myth because you dont want it to be true/happen"

      everytime i think about, i kinda want santa to be real. id share cookies and milk with a big red, hairy, bearded hobo anyday.

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    • I guess we can just chalk it up to convienience for the gameplay, or Seethe being crazy.

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    • Aftenshnoshnikr wrote:
      why does seathe keep it in such an open place for such a fragile crystal? he shoulda mixed it with cereal and eaten it or hide it inside of the walls or something. its like you got the very first copy of the dark souls book and you dont wanna read it or let anything damage it,


      so you put it in the middle of a cafe on the floor where everyone has a tradition to messily spill the meals tha they eat

      bottom line: its gonna happen. he left his crystal in a place anyone could touch it if they tried hard enough.

      The Crystal Cave is definately not out in the open where anyone can get at it. It's also crawling with his creations, including the Moonlight Buterflies. If he ate it, then he'd probably digest it and destroy it anyway, making it useless (or it might just cut up the inside of his stomach horribly).

      There's also the matter of what if the crystal requires constant maintenance and care? If Seath needs to regularly adjust the crystal or energize it or something to keep it functional, then putting it inside a wall would mean he would have to dig it out and then put it back every time.

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    • or....what if he put it in a maneater carbshell? they dont digeste stuff witnessed by the skulls (the dead just rot in its mouth, crystals dont decompose) and then he created an army or family of crabshells to look after that one crab? he could easily just fly by the family and the crab could spit it out and hed give it a polish and such.

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    • Aftenshnoshnikr wrote:
      or....what if he put it in a maneater carbshell? they dont digeste stuff witnessed by the skulls (the dead just rot in its mouth, crystals dont decompose) and then he created an army or family of crabshells to look after that one crab? he could easily just fly by the family and the crab could spit it out and hed give it a polish and such.

      Sure Seathe could just shove it into his creations but this crystal is connected to wall where removing it might be impossible without shattering it, also its smarter to keep your creation near you under your watch instead of putting it into your minions control.

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    • I don't see what the problem here is. Seath showed that he is fully capable of coming to the crystal's protection at a moment's notice, demonstrated by how he flies in right as the Chosen Undead enters the chamber. And that he is able to repair/replace the crystal in a short amount of time. Even if the Chosen Undead destroys the crystal, if they do not kill Seath and instead either leave or die the crystal will be completely fixed by the time they return.

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    • I'm not sure if that is because of gameplay rather than an actual fact

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    • mhmm

      he didnt notice me killing everything in the Archives, he didnt see me twerk on the dead bodies of crystal golems and he didnt see me cut purging stones from the skulls in the mouths of the maneater crabs while i burnt them to cinders and had a lovely Craab a La Monche. He didnt even see me tell my phantoms to run to the crystal and line themselves up next to it and he probably didnt see mthem ready thekr weapons to kill the crystal.

      He only saw me walk in the front door.

      "Oh Seathe, i'll be back the next time your having a private barbeque, i'll bring the drinks dont worry you wont see it coming."

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    • im not being sarcastic or trying really hard to be rude, im just.......testing the irony? idk what the word is, but im just 'trying' the facts of DaS.

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    • DS kinda hand waves the little bits Aften, there's a lot of little things that don't make much sense if you think about them long enough.

      And I thought those were clams?

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    • Aftenshnoshnikr wrote:
      mhmm

      he didnt notice me killing everything in the Archives, he didnt see me twerk on the dead bodies of crystal golems and he didnt see me cut purging stones from the skulls in the mouths of the maneater crabs while i burnt them to cinders and had a lovely Craab a La Monche. He didnt even see me tell my phantoms to run to the crystal and line themselves up next to it and he probably didnt see mthem ready thekr weapons to kill the crystal.

      He only saw me walk in the front door.

      "Oh Seathe, i'll be back the next time your having a private barbeque, i'll bring the drinks dont worry you wont see it coming."

      Maybe he just didn't care enough to do anything. There's clearly no shortage in golems or clams. And of course he didn't "see" you do any of it. He's blind. Way to pick on blind dragons, Aften.

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    • He's a blind crazy dragon with butterfly wings and tentacles to move. I don't even knwo how he gets in the Crystal room...magic?

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    • Maybe he pulls a Kool-Aid Man and just bursts through the ceiling?

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    • Or maybe he was in the room all along.

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    • He was being a ninja and had pressed himself against the crystals to ambush the player.

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    • Considering Seath is blind, the Chosen Undead most smell terrible for Seath to notice them so easily.

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    • Well, realistically speaking the player's armor would probably smell pretty foul with the gore of the previous monsters they've killed, the sweat and filth gathered from going through the bog, etc.

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    • I wonder if Undead smell awful as a rule. Perhaps the way the Way of White was able to determine who was undead and who wasn't was by just walking up to a person, smelling them, and if the first thing they said was "What crawled on you and died?", they were Undead.

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    • ahahahahhahaha intersting theory lol

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    • Well, I guess it's better than my theory where WOW members would walk around stabbing people, and if you came back to life they knocked you over the head and carted you off to the asylum.

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    • i thought i was in the asylum for vacation?


      anyway, what happened to the kiln to twist those pillars outside? if the fire exploded outwards, then shouldnt it be pointing away rom the kiln?

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    • Not sure if it was the fire

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    • Aftenshnoshnikr wrote:
      i thought i was in the asylum for vacation?


      anyway, what happened to the kiln to twist those pillars outside? if the fire exploded outwards, then shouldnt it be pointing away rom the kiln?


      maybe the kiln was like a black hole? it just implodes when some dude kindles it?.. waiting for the next sucker to kindle it. :).. I know the end credits where the chosen undead kindles the flame show an explosion, but the implosion may happen after that; like during the lifecycle of a star, see.

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    • Well...considering it's some kind of furnace...It shouldn't actually melt.

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    • What if it turned out that the First Kiln was actually the inside of the sun, or atleast fueled the sun. And that the Age of Dark was like eternal night or something.

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    • Might make sense, the undead are kinda like vampires after all.

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    • Well, the sun seems to be connected somehow to Gwyn/the first flame. But I don't know how

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    • maybe, the sun has moe imporatnce than we think? like how the seat of gwyn and the rest was Anor Londo, where ANOR may mean SUN in fictitious tongues of course. I made a post in Anor Londo page as well. (now, if only we could ask the creator of the game......)

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    • Gonna drop my 2 cents here...

      Considering that we now know that the core theme of the first game was "humanity" and the second game is about "curse" - I came to a conclusion that there are much more sinister things about Giants and Humans in DkS universe. According to descriptions of new items and hints given by Hag Merchant - our new location is not only located far away from Lordran, but it also has its own lore. To further support my idea - a Dragon Cleric character possessed Miracles and Hag mentions Giants crossing the sea, this event being followed by Drangleic's long waged war since their arrival... Human Effigy, which replaces humanity this time, seems to be something new judging by its description and by "new" I mean "new to this land". Undead Curse seems to be something uncommon in Drangleic - it seems that Giants have brought the Curse of Undeath along with them. And whom might these creatures be...? I believe that those are the remaining Dieties from Anor Londo - at least Gwynevere(War miracle mentions that it has originated from a warrior in service of the Princess of Sunlight). Humans in Lordran have been shephered by the Giants, but in Drangleic they seem to have story of their own - items like Black Robes speak of sorcerer Straid who has been a brother-in-arms of an Old King of Olaphis and their victory over an ancient Dragon. Pyromancy and other spells contain phrases like "...unknown who created... passed down by unknown practicioner... belonged to a long-forgotten hero(lightning)... originated as a sorcery(dark burst)...".

      I think that while Gwyn and other Lords ruled in the land of Lordran - somewhere else Humans have managed to make a living on their own, free of giant's tyranny. And which is more importaint - free of Darkness. But after its outbreak in Lordran - Giants have abandoned the land and crossed the sea to seek refuge from it, finding Drangleic and other lands and establishing their rule there as well... but in the end - Darkness has managed to catch up with them or, possibly, Giants fuel the flames as it fuels their power and their rule. It makes sense to me that by taking the Lord Souls from the Flame - Gwyn, Nito and the Witch took a vital part of it - and it has been dying slowly all that time... But being powerlustful as they are - Giants would not return the power of the flame or allow nature take its course - so they, starting with Gwyn, have been artifically fueling the flame. Sun in Drangleic seems to exist, despite disappearing in Lordran. 

      In the first game we see that humanity, while being branded as "born of darkness" is neither good or evil, their rulers, Giants, while represented by "Sun" and assosiated with "Light" are far from being honest and all-mighty, and beasts of the Abyss, looking at Manus and Artorias, are not actually as evil as they are implied to be... This time around, imo, we would have to deal with the curse itself, its origin. The time has come to end the reign of Giants and proclaim the Age of Man, but not of Darkness.


      @VincentVanZigel

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    • Wait, isn't the Age of Man basically the Age of Darkness?

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    • Yes, the Age of Man and the Age of Dark are one in the same.

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    • Supposedly. Kaathe could very easily be lying in order to manipulate the Chosen Undead.

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    • Yes, I think it the same way Dark Jeto said. Kaathe's words seem plausible, but we have seen what happened in Oolacile, what happened to the humans there. Or what happened to the Four Kings. Both Kaathe and Gods imply that humans are destined for darkness (I find it funny that Oswald specifically says that, quote, it is only human to commit a sin... But we know that giants/gods are far from being innocent themselves - with Gwyn tolerating the abominable experiments of Seath, cruel fates of Gwyndolin and Priscilla and lets not forget this whole undead affair... We know, based on what we've seen, that humans in DkS are not some monsters *cough*Solaire*cough*, but rather victims of circumstance.


      @VincentVanZigel

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    • What if, the abyss and the dark are two different things. I mean the abyss is humanity "gone mad" if i am not mistaken

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    • I don't know if someone already said this but, "Vereor nox" apparently means either fear the night or fear the dark...

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    • It's widely believed that humanity sprites are pieces of the Dark Soul, so yes, the Age of Man is the Age of Dark due to how much humanity would be flowing without the Age of Fire to consume it.

      As for Vincent's statement, it's not explicitly stated that Seathe was performing his more abominable experiments while Gwyn and the other Lords were still in charge, there might have been an actual, legit reason for Gwyndolin's fate (such as mutation considering the snake legs) and he could've just changed into more masculine clothes once Gwyn was gone, I doubt the other gods and giants would've gone nuts just because the local bishonen put on some pants. Priscilla was confirmed to be a threat by the gods due to her Lifehunt ability, she was a security issue that threatened the realm. Finally, the undead curse could just be an unforeseen side effect from linking the fires, not an intended goal.

      Not trying to be antagonistic, just providing a counter argument.

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    • Also a thing people forget is whats a better choice as a leader, you or Gwyndolin? 

      If bonfires do cause the undead then choosing the dark ending wich wipes out bonfires and then the undead can be killed without respawning. Because bonfires don't exist anymore than whats the point of having dark hand to steal humanity when no one will ever go hollow unless you're greedy and want to become an abomination.

      I guess Seathe had been conducting experiments without Gwyn knowing? I mean there is a fang bore infront of the entrance.

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    • I always thought the Dark Hand's purpose to consume enough humanity that an undead can become powerful enough to suceed the Pygmy as the Dark Lord, then end the AOF.

      As for who would make a better leader, that's impossible to know. Not only would the question be purely subjective and based on the player and their character (depending on wether or not roleplaying was involved) but we simply don't know how Gwyn ran things in any real detail. All that can be learned is that he ruled Lordran and dominated the world for a while, did a couple things, then dissapeared to Kindle the First Flame with his soul. We don't know about his policies, we don't know how he organized anything, we know very little about his personal motivations or thought processes... you're asking an unanswerable question.

      Finally, I doubt a couple fang boars could stop gods who could throw fire, create plagues, and command armies.

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    • The fang boars just meant 'go away or harsh punishment' including the silly yellow gate.

      I bet Gwyn was sovereign so that means whoever inherits the throne would be his children but the first born is gone, Gwynevere fled, and so that leaves to Gwyndolin, Lord of Gender as king.

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    • I wasn't talking about what kind of government Lordran had, I was reffering to the policies of that government.

      For instance, in America there are a lot of controversial arguments regarding our policies on civilian firearms, and there are still debates on homosexuality and discrimination. This kind of stuff is what I was talking about.

      Even with the gate, boars, and Seathe himself he wouldn't have been a match for the combined might of the Lords if they caught him doing anything freaky.

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    • Oh. That doesn't matter really since this is a monarchy where everything is chosen by a the sovereign and he dictates everything unless he decides to change this type of government. 

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    • Hereticalthoughts wrote:

      Not trying to be antagonistic, just providing a counter argument.

      That is perfectly fine! This is, after all, the way opinions are exchanged! I present mine and then someone states his own.

      Gwyn was a magnificent father, now wasn’t he? He has lost 1 kid, his Firstborn, whom he banished for some unknown act, his last child is a disfigured monstrosity… and only his precious daughter, the Princess of Sunlight, remains unscarred. By the moment Chosen Undead makes his way into her chambers – she is long gone and had been replaced by an illusion instead. IMO – the moment Gwyn sacrificed himself for the sake of his daughter and other gods – they have all fled, possibly to seek shelter or simply to escape, so…


                  1) About Seath’s experiments – even the fire keeper in Anor Londo is aware of them and the gate is sealed by golden fog – something surely done by Gwyn. If we take into consideration the fact that giants/gods have some kind of grudge towards humankind – I think none of them would even find Seath’s deeds to be anywhere near monstrous… humans are monsters themselves after all, according to them…

      2) I believe Gwyndolin’s will to be broken since his birth. While he is related to the Moon, his actual title is Dark Sun, for there is no other star in the sky – how would anyone even dare to dispute the Sun? He follows his father’s orders without hesitation and is left alone to cover the retreat of other deities, with handful of followers who keep themselves secret from the outsiders…  The moment when he reveals himself to the player upon death of illusionary Gwynevere, when everything goes dark, is interpreted by players to testify the fact that Sun has abandoned Anor Londo. But what if it is simply night? Moon can only be seen during the night, just as Gwyndolin reveals himself in darkness. The flow of time in Lordran is dispersed, could it be that Anor Londo got stuck in the night phase because there was no Sun, but Moon instead..? He seems like another victim to me…

      3) Yes, Priscilla had a truly terrifying power at her disposal, but unlike the good gods of Sunlight – she behaves defensively, asking the Chosen Undead to leave her be, while deities attack you upon sight – both Nito and Gwyndolin, for they would not tolerate any kind of interference. But c’mon… Gwyn allowed Seath to continue to exist and I really doubt that someone could consider poor crossbreed to be far more dangerous than an actual ancient dragon. My guess would be that Velka took her in to protect her… but still – cruel fate no less.  


                 4) The deities are gone… where could they have gone to? In Dark Souls 2 Merchant Hag Melentia tells us about giants that had crossed the sea long ago… Could it possibly be the gods of Anor Londo? Seems plausible to me. According to item and spell description – people of Drangleic have no idea about the origin of Lightning Spear other than it being some kind of an old miracle, or Pyromancy, but they know about the Princess of Sunlight. My guess would be that these giants indeed are the ones who escaped from Lordran and it seems that they have brought the curse along with them… Even human effigy is described as something unusual, as if it has been only recently discovered.


                 5) I believe furtive pygmy to be a sage / martyr of sorts… While Nito, Which and Gwyn had claimed the power of Lord Souls for themselves – pygmy has shared what he had found… and it his Dark Soul, humanity, which feeds the flame and thanks to him – it is humans, who can continue to feed it. But in order for the Flame to be restored, IMO, all the power taken by the Primordial Lords must be returned to the flame and since sacrifice of Chosen Undead and linking of the flame seems to be futile… it looks like Gwyn had split his soul in more pieces… possibly Gwynevere and others still possess them…I do not believe either serpent... we know nothing of pygmy - he was forgotten.  For all I care - they could fabricate the legend, because why are BOTH Kaathe and Frampt present during the Dark Lord ending? Shouldn't Frampt flee and worn the remaining gods of the Dark Lord's coming...?

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    • that is alot to digest, and to think about

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    • The description on the orange chard ring, ""An orange ring enchanted by a witch. Reduces lava damage. Since his sores were inflamed by lava from birth, his witch sisters gave him this special ring. But fool that he is, he readily dropped it, and from that spot, a terrible centipede demon was born. now who has sores with lava? Somehow drops this ring and centipede demon was born. Ceaseless- The only son of the Witch of Izalith, now a gigantic lava-demon with fiery tentacles, distorted by the flame of Chaos. Born with sores inflamed with lava, his sisters made him the Orange Charred Ring to ease his pain, but he lost it not long after. He currently guards one of his sister's corpse, and will attack you if steal his sister's Gold Hemmed Black Set. Sisters: 1. Ceaseless Watches over an un-named sister. 2. The fair lady-sister too quelaag 3. Quelana the mother of pyromancy 4. The eldest daughter can be found before bed of chaos (witch of izalith desc.) 5. Quelaag- After the Flame of Chaos incident, all but her sister Quelana were transformed into nefarious demons. With this, are here 2 missing sisters demons? Stray demon? And I'm not entirely convinced that the mother is not the bed of chaos.

      Just my unorganized thoughts so far



        • Conflicting that witch of Izalith and Quelana are both referred to as mother of pyromancy
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    • You're right about Ceaseless Discharge. This was confirmed by Miyazaki in the Design Works interview.

      I would speculate that the two unaccounted daughters of chaos are part of the Bed of Chaos along with their mother. Perhaps the two arms are what are left of the daughters' power, while the head/body would be what is left of the Witch of Izalith. Although this is never clarified, to my knowledge, so we can't know for sure. However, from Quelana's dialogue, we can at least be relatively certain that some remnant of their mother is still part of the Bed of Chaos when the Chosen Undead faces it.

      I don't know of anything that states that the Witch was the mother of Pyromancy. Before Pyromancy the Witch and her daughters wielded flame sorcery. It was only after their mother created the Flame of Chaos, devouring/transforming herself in the process, that Quelana developed Pyromancy – or something along those lines. Izalith Catalyst

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    • You're correct, Daifu. Quelana invented pyromancy, the Witch simply allowed for it to be possible when she created the Bed of Chaos, thus bringing the concept of chaos into the world.

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    • Description

      The Witch of Izalith is one of the deities that defeated the dragons long ago. She is the godmother of pyromancy. She once ambitiously attempted to recreate the first flame, but what she instead produced was a twisted being of chaotic fire: the Bed of Chaos, source of all demons. It consumed the witch and her followers.

      Two of her daughters managed to partially escape: Quelaag, and one known only as The Fair Lady. Their lower bodies morphed into demonic spiders, but from the waist up they were spared. A third, Quelana, managed to escape completely, and now wanders the Blighttown swamp. Her eldest daughter can be found in the hall before the Bed of Chaos Dark souls wiki in game description

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    • Didn't the Witch of Izalith come before Quelana?

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    • But then again there is fire sorcery. Idk, the more I dig the more confusion. Is the woman you encounter in the ruins the Witch? Or is Quelana? Maybe all the NPC's you encounter lived at one time and now since time distortion maybe it allows you to see them in your world. At one time I thought the armor sets you find was in fact where that specific person had expired. I'm going mad!

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    • Yes. He means that Quelana was only able to invent Pyromancy after the Witch and her daughters were absorbed into the Bed of Chaos.

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    • 184.58.118.157 wrote:
      But then again there is fire sorcery. Idk, the more I dig the more confusion.

      Is the woman you encounter in the ruins the Witch? Or is Quelana? Maybe all the NPC's you encounter lived at one time and now since time distortion maybe it allows you to see them in your world. At one time I thought the armor sets you find was in fact where that specific person had expired. I'm going mad!

      Fire sorcery was the Witch's form of magic, but it was obliterated by the flame of chaos, so Quelana had to improvise and invent pyromancy to cope.

      At least, that's what I think happened.

      Also no, the Witch is that weird maggot like critter in the Bed of Chaos, two of her daughters make up the arms. The pyromancer that is encountered in the game is likely just one of Quelana's sisters gone mad, or perhaps just a random guy who was wandering the ruins.

      You're at least partially correct on the npcs, many of them come from different time periods (Logan for example had been missing for one hundred years before the player encounters him for example). Though we can't really be certain wether or not all the npcs are from different times than the player.

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    • The whole time distortion thing has never been clear to me. Couldn't the age differences, like Logan, be explained by the fact that they are Undead and thus have ceased to age?

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    • Oh right, that's valid too.

      In fact, if it's true that undead don't age from the time they become that way, being one sounds like a pretty good thing really.

      Except the whole hollow thing of course.

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    • sorry, backtracking for a second.

      184.58.118.157 wrote: The Witch of Izalith is one of the deities that defeated the dragons long ago. She is the godmother of pyromancy.
      ...
      Her eldest daughter can be found in the hall before the Bed of Chaos Dark souls wiki in game description

      Which in-game description states that the Witch is the godmother of Pyromancy (edit: Laurentius dialogue states this), and which states that you face the eldest daughter in Lost Izalith? Not saying they don't exist, but I am not remembering them.


      Not aging is what I would assume of an "Undead", but does it state anywhere in-game about how they age?

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    • I don't think I've heard anything about Undead aging in the game or from interviews unfortunately, so it may be that they age like regular humans.

      Blast! If only the devs had put in more background info!

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    • to whole bed of chaos looks to me as a really big person (not even a woman) with dreadlocks. Maybe the bug like creature absorbed the Witch and her daughters for want of armor? Like the cockroach alien from the first men-in-black movie. (If someone has already mentioned this speculation, sry for the repeat)

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    • It's hinted rather heavily that the Witch was turned into the bug type creature. Besides, by that logic the Centipede demon doesn't look like a ring that allows you to walk through lava, ergo it isn't.

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    • hmmm. that kinda makes sense too..

      I had this crazy scenario going on in my head about when the chaos flame was created:

      "HAHA! Watch me as I I urn your mummy into a big wooden thingy and now I'll turn you into hot half spiders and such. BWAHAHA!!"

      and then the devs say" great!! for all that you get 3 HP".... :D

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    • If you look carefully you can see that the bed of chaos has 6 hands. In the cutsceen you can see that there are at least 7 daughters of chaos and the witch. Queelag, The Fair Lady, Queelana, the one in front of ceasless and the one in front of the bed of chaos boss gate assuming that they are all the daughters of chaos that would make 3 left including the witch. And the bed of chaos has 3 sets of hands

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    • perhaps Velka and Gwyndolin are one and the same? The people that goto the Vinheim Dragon school learn to use sorceries based on intelligence, but Gwyn doesnt really love dragons save for Seath, so perhaps he is against sorcery, Gwyndolin might know that and therefore develops miracles based on intelligence under the alias of Velka. cant say anything about Velkas past though. other than that perhaps this whole plot is to lure the Chosen Undead and give them the Lord Vessel in order to succeed Lord Gwyn?

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    • Havel the rock is supposed to be massively anti-sorcery, hence his hatred for Seath. If Gwyn was anti-sorcery he wouldnt have given Seath a dukedom and control of the archives, at least i doubt he would have. Plus i think the idea of Seath being Priscillas father isnt really probable, as surely the fact Priscilla has scales goes against Seath.

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    • Hmm, good thoughts here, good thoughts.

      Personally I think that Gwyndolin and Velka have very different goals and methods, Gwyndolin isn't so much punishing people for wrongdoings as he is eliminating threats to the gods and maintaining the current status quo. Velka on the other hand is more personal and simple in how she does things, she punishes due to the actual crime commited, meaning that she's not concerned with who was harmed, but rather that the harm was done.

      I think Gwyn gave Seath a dukedom for several reasons:

      1. as thanks for his help against the dragons.

      2. To get dibs on any information/research that Seath discovered and release in the future, having sorcery on his side granted him another powerful weapon/tool to use.

      3. To keep an eye on Seath in general. After all, he was willing to betray his own race to almost total destruction, what's to say that he wouldn't do it again if it benefitted him?

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    • Here's a few theories I've had:

      Havel was planning to other-throw the gods. (not new)

      I also think he was working with the Everlasting Dragon. The Great Magic Barrier found in Ash Lake can imply this. Also - it states on his shield that it is enchanted with his own unique type of magic - ancient magic he possibly could have learned from the Everlasting Dragon. Also, the R2 that gives you stone scales... may imply some type of "Dragon Magic".

      Gwyn, being manipulated by Seath, could have locked Havel into his tower. Thus Seath's minions surrounding the tower.

      Havel was my favorite lore character in this game. I seriously hate how little character development he got

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    • Question time:

      HereticalThoughts: Why didn't Gwyn tell this to Havel? It might have kept one one Gwyns few friends and allies close to him, and trusting him, and stopped A GODDAMN UPRISING. I mean,  seriously, he had to have know how much Havel hated Seath. Like, come on, man.

      Zeroto100: Seath is crazy, not stupid. I think. Anyways, instead of surrounding the tower, why not just go in there and kill Havel? And don't say "no master key". You have to kill the moonlight butterfly in order to get the basement key. And also don't say: not strong enough; Seath kills the CU in, like, 10 seconds. The CU kills Havel long before that. And if Seath didn't want to go, why not just have some serpent men throw a dung pie in Havels room? It straight up kills him, and I'm pretty sure that poop from anywhere, not just blighttown, can be used. In fact, considering that the undead don't eat or sleep, I'm suprised dung pies are even in the game.

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    • ZeroTo100 wrote:
      Here's a few theories I've had:

      Havel was planning to other-throw the gods. (not new)

      I also think he was working with the Everlasting Dragon. The Great Magic Barrier found in Ash Lake can imply this. Also - it states on his shield that it is enchanted with his own unique type of magic - ancient magic he possibly could have learned from the Everlasting Dragon. Also, the R2 that gives you stone scales... may imply some type of "Dragon Magic".

      Gwyn, being manipulated by Seath, could have locked Havel into his tower. Thus Seath's minions surrounding the tower.

      Havel was my favorite lore character in this game. I seriously hate how little character development he got

      How about since he's a Bishop and the big church in the game is Llyods ie. the one that keeps sending the paladins... so there may be some link between Llyod and Havel's actions . What do we know about Llyod? Well his Church has undead hunts, he sends Paladins to try and rob the rit eof kindling, he has an item named after him that prevents the use of estus. Maybe Havel was his representative or at least the representative of his Church in Lordran. Maybe Seath's sorecery/experiments/powerbase was a threat or an of desecration in the eyes of those of Llyod's church.


      Maybe Havel was organising a foray in to the archives and gets locked in the tower by his friend who hopes to save his life only for his friend to be killed in the ensuing backlash, when it went ahead without Havel, and Havel sentenced to imprisonment. Maybe Havel was the Bishop of the old Church and his actions meant it got abandoned and his Parish wiped out eliminating Llyod's powerbase. Llyod responds by declaring war and starts sending in Paladins first to provoke a rebellion, as Gywnn is now gone, and Llyod sees himself as the only real authority left. The rebellion/coup subsequently fails but not before pinwheel grabs power for himself (for whatever reasons). Leeroy gets to Nito who cuts down members of the rebellion/coup but uses up a lot of his remaining power to enslave/stop them leaving him unable to retake full control of the catacombs. He then decides to bide his time and regrow his power while Pinwheel is too distracted to press the attack, although it might be possible Nito was sending assasasins after Pinwheel which would give Pinwheel's actions a bit more logic as he goes on the attack after debating with himself/itself and comes to the conlusion we're an assassin of Nito or Llyod trying to rob the rite of kindling.


      Going back to the dragon link, in ash lake, however it was possibly where he got the dragon tooth in the first place. The everlasting dragon obviously has no love for Seath who betrayed it and his kind. It culd have taught him some defence against magic as well. As far as the dragon tooth goes its quite interesting as one of the most famous myths is in Greek mythology about a guy named Cadmus whose sister god kidnapped by a God! So it could be possible Havel has a personal grudge because his sister may have been kidnapped by Seath for his experiments which dorve him to extreme lengths ie. seeking assistance from his ancient enemy.


      Sorry for all the text :)

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    • KreesU wrote:
      Question time:

      HereticalThoughts: Why didn't Gwyn tell this to Havel? It might have kept one one Gwyns few friends and allies close to him, and trusting him, and stopped A GODDAMN UPRISING. I mean,  seriously, he had to have know how much Havel hated Seath. Like, come on, man.

      Zeroto100: Seath is crazy, not stupid. I think. Anyways, instead of surrounding the tower, why not just go in there and kill Havel? And don't say "no master key". You have to kill the moonlight butterfly in order to get the basement key. And also don't say: not strong enough; Seath kills the CU in, like, 10 seconds. The CU kills Havel long before that. And if Seath didn't want to go, why not just have some serpent men throw a dung pie in Havels room? It straight up kills him, and I'm pretty sure that poop from anywhere, not just blighttown, can be used. In fact, considering that the undead don't eat or sleep, I'm suprised dung pies are even in the game.

      I'm not sure, it could be that Gwyn did tell him, but Havel's hatred of Seathe and possibly sorcery in general was greater than his loyalty to Gwyn, causing him to take up arms against his former Lord and thus his fall was asured. Or perhaps Havel was there when Gwyn rekindled the flame and felt that the Age of Fire had to end as the natural course of things, we really don't have much insight at all in how or why Havel did anything really. Which is actually one of the Souls series' weakpoints in my opinion.

      I know that the second question was meant for Zeroto, but I'mma swoop in on that one too since I'm here and drop my two cents.

      Seath probably just didn't care about Havel, he likely thought of him as a nuisance but othwerwise wasn't bothered by some idiot (n his eyes) with a chip on his shoulder.

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    • Touche.

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    • 213.233.148.25 wrote:
      ZeroTo100 wrote:
      Here's a few theories I've had:Havel was planning to other-throw the gods. (not new)

      I also think he was working with the Everlasting Dragon. The Great Magic Barrier found in Ash Lake can imply this. Also - it states on his shield that it is enchanted with his own unique type of magic - ancient magic he possibly could have learned from the Everlasting Dragon. Also, the R2 that gives you stone scales... may imply some type of "Dragon Magic".

      Gwyn, being manipulated by Seath, could have locked Havel into his tower. Thus Seath's minions surrounding the tower.

      Havel was my favorite lore character in this game. I seriously hate how little character development he got

      How about since he's a Bishop and the big church in the game is Llyods ie. the one that keeps sending the paladins... so there may be some link between Llyod and Havel's actions . What do we know about Llyod? Well his Church has undead hunts, he sends Paladins to try and rob the rit eof kindling, he has an item named after him that prevents the use of estus. Maybe Havel was his representative or at least the representative of his Church in Lordran. Maybe Seath's sorecery/experiments/powerbase was a threat or an of desecration in the eyes of those of Llyod's church.


      Maybe Havel was organising a foray in to the archives and gets locked in the tower by his friend who hopes to save his life only for his friend to be killed in the ensuing backlash, when it went ahead without Havel, and Havel sentenced to imprisonment. Maybe Havel was the Bishop of the old Church and his actions meant it got abandoned and his Parish wiped out eliminating Llyod's powerbase. Llyod responds by declaring war and starts sending in Paladins first to provoke a rebellion, as Gywnn is now gone, and Llyod sees himself as the only real authority left. The rebellion/coup subsequently fails but not before pinwheel grabs power for himself (for whatever reasons). Leeroy gets to Nito who cuts down members of the rebellion/coup but uses up a lot of his remaining power to enslave/stop them leaving him unable to retake full control of the catacombs. He then decides to bide his time and regrow his power while Pinwheel is too distracted to press the attack, although it might be possible Nito was sending assasasins after Pinwheel which would give Pinwheel's actions a bit more logic as he goes on the attack after debating with himself/itself and comes to the conlusion we're an assassin of Nito or Llyod trying to rob the rite of kindling.


      Going back to the dragon link, in ash lake, however it was possibly where he got the dragon tooth in the first place. The everlasting dragon obviously has no love for Seath who betrayed it and his kind. It culd have taught him some defence against magic as well. As far as the dragon tooth goes its quite interesting as one of the most famous myths is in Greek mythology about a guy named Cadmus whose sister god kidnapped by a God! So it could be possible Havel has a personal grudge because his sister may have been kidnapped by Seath for his experiments which dorve him to extreme lengths ie. seeking assistance from his ancient enemy.


      Sorry for all the text :)


      From the way Havel's story is told it seems like he was locked in a cell a while before this mess with the undead started and was before Lloyd's time, so the rite of kindling may not have existed yet and the paladins and Way of White might not have been in their current form.

      Dunno where you're getting this from, but it looks more like Pinwheel is the result of some screwed up experiment led by Nito's followers or by someone trying to revive the dead to true human form, there's no evidence that says he was involved in anything that happened up in Lordran.

      Our lack of knowledge on Havel's life means that no one knows if he had any family, all we know is that he was alive around the time of the War of the Ancients and hated Seath and dragons in general with a passion. In particular he was known to despise sorcery which was invented by the dragons so the thought of him using it for anything strikes a queer note in my ears. It's possible that his armor just has those properties due to it's materials or it might be blessed with obscure miraculous properties.

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    • Two words: Baby Skeletons. Has anyone ever thought about why the skeletons of so many infants are found not only in the Tomb of Giants, but in such a close proximity to the Pinwheel Servants? Did Pinwheel and his Servants kill infants for some sort of ritual, magical study, or other unthought of (at least by me) reasons? Maybe Pinwheel and his servants have nothing to do with the Baby Skeletons but the question still begs to be asked, why is there a mass grave of infants in the ToG and why were they reanimated?

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    • Al Wolf2200 wrote:
      Two words: Baby Skeletons. Has anyone ever thought about why the skeletons of so many infants are found not only in the Tomb of Giants, but in such a close proximity to the Pinwheel Servants? Did Pinwheel and his Servants kill infants for some sort of ritual, magical study, or other unthought of (at least by me) reasons? Maybe Pinwheel and his servants have nothing to do with the Baby Skeletons but the question still begs to be asked, why is there a mass grave of infants in the ToG and why were they reanimated?


      Well, back in the middle ages and before there was a huge infant mortality rate, babies died of all kinds of diseases and accidents so the skelebabies might be a result of that.

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    • Perhaps Nito is just kinky? Maybe it was pinwheels failed attempt at reanimating the child?

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    • maybe the skelly babies are just skeletons that are still wittle, iddy, bitty babies still. But the story with pinwheel using babies in ritual does add up. In the boss cutscene he has a skeleton on the table so he probably does experiments trying to un-mutate himself. And maybe baby skeleton were easier to catch and he just threw them in a swamp which was the same to a refridgerator back then. (im being serious)

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    • Do the channelers like have there way with the women they capture for experiments? 

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Do the channelers like have there way with the women they capture for experiments? 


      Good God, I hope not.

      Far as can be inferred, they're pretty much just lab assistants/guards/agents for Seath, there's nothing said about them wanting to... 'mate' with their captives.

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    • Spoiler Alert for those who haven't gotten to Dragon Shrine yet on DaS II.


      Is the Ancient Dragon an illusion? He doesn't even drop an Ancient Dragon Soul, which can actually be found in the Dragon Memories Area (Duke's Dear Freja bossfight). Also, his tail can't be chopped off, which may be referenced to the fact he's not real. Also... Is this the Stone Dragon from DaS 1? Or, an illusion of it? Because normally you can't kill him, but an illusion of him, no matter how strong, would be weaker. Instead of dropping the Ancient Dragon Soul, he drops a Soul of a Giant.

      I believe that the Stone Dragon somehow died, causing him to end up in the Dragon Memories. Upon finding his body, the player takes his soul, which has some quotes on him. Also, someone wants to give the allusion he's still alive, so they make an illusion. 

      P.S. In the Dragon Memories area, you can look off into the distance and see long deceased Archtrees.

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    • This shouldn't be the Stone Dragon from Dark Souls 1. The Stone Dragon had two sets of wings, and sat upright like Seathe. I believe that this memory is from a Dragon that died shortly after the war between the Gods and the Dragons before the Age of Fire even began. It is strange that the Ancient Dragon Soul found in the memory mentions the Ancient Dragon found in the Dragon Shrine. However, I do not believe that he is an illusion. The only illusions we ever encountered in Dark Souls have faded away after a single hit (i.e. Gwynevere and Illusory Walls). Why this Dragon possesses a Giant Soul is a mystery.

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    • Dark Jeto wrote:
      This shouldn't be the Stone Dragon from Dark Souls 1. The Stone Dragon had two sets of wings, and sat upright like Seathe. I believe that this memory is from a Dragon that died shortly after the war between the Gods and the Dragons before the Age of Fire even began. It is strange that the Ancient Dragon Soul found in the memory mentions the Ancient Dragon found in the Dragon Shrine. However, I do not believe that he is an illusion. The only illusions we ever encountered in Dark Souls have faded away after a single hit (i.e. Gwynevere and Illusory Walls). Why this Dragon possesses a Giant Soul is a mystery.


      I might have an answer for that, or rather, VaatiVidya might. The dragon that the player encounters at the manor could be the person who owned the place before his disappearance. He was said to have been studying giants and dragons and that something happened to make him vanish, but maybe he didn't and transformed into a dragon via the giants' soul.

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    • something to the giants soul that the dragon had is the real one was killed years ago vendrick had adia remake the dragons body from the body of the dead giants(ever find those in adias keep?) with the make shift body and no soul to place in it they took a giants soul in its place ever notice the dragon looks rather sickly? its not from age i guess its from the bodies being formed into something they arent(topic change) now this goes all the way back to the top about perscilla i think she is the daughter of ariamis and a human woman in the courtyard you see a woman and child this hints that her mother was normal also explains why in a world of giant lords and freaks really how she was considered the abonination she was around normal people i guess ariamis was a dragon who created the painted world to protect perscilla creating the monsters to protect her and keep his little girl safe. explains why she thinks them kind also why she talks so highly of ariamis this is all ideas but its a solid theroy seath is a nut job and doesnt have any scales perscilla has scales on the back of her neck and she uses snow and ice not crystal and curses also she doesnt use illiusuions like gewniver(know i didnt spell right) the reason shes in anor londa is gwyn took the painting as a prize for killing ariamis or had ariamis create him a painting in which he could enter the dragons magic something went wrong and perscilla the creation of magic came out so many ideas how she was made no answers for it anyone can speculate but there will always be one question wheres ariamis and who is he he is the key to answering the entire question he made perscillas world so he would know her makings

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    • Also, I wanna leave this comment here for people to analyze.

      One of Sweet Shalquoir's lines is as followed: "You'll find a great creature far to the east. A colossal thing, with the strength to match the size. Or something playing the part, at least."

      I believe she may be refering to the Ancient Dragon.

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    • Sweet Shalquoir's dialogue references a lot of things, like the Ancient dragon, Northern Undead Asylum, and the Lost Sinner.

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    • She references the Lost Bastille, not the Undead Asylum. We know this because she refers to the place where they locked up the Undead as a "bastille", and goes on to say that the Lost Sinner lives deep within it.

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    • Oh, woops. My mistake.

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    • I have this little bit of a headcanon about the furtive pigmy and Gwyn's firstborn sharing a connection. We know about the firstborn that 1) some part of the annals was erased because of his foolishness and 2) because of this he himself was erased from the annals. I've seen speculation here that these two facts are contradictory things referring to the same event but i feel it rather fitting that he be punished with the same thing he had comitted as a crime.

      But history has a tendency of being forgotten here and there, so what he erased must have been pretty important for such drastic measures. What could he, as a god, have done to deserve such punishment? What information was worth so much to the Gods to strip him of his deific status upon this blunder? This train of thought led me to think of one of the most mysterious mentioned characters, the furtive pygmy. We know he found the Dark Soul around the same time the other Lord Souls were found, so he would be alive in the early Age of Fire, and since we don't know when exactly the firstborn was banished, this might as well be that time.

      So my question is, what if the Lords knew of the fourth Great Soul and its fragmentation into Humanities? What if only THEY and maybe a select few knew about it, and not even they in great detail? I'm not sure if this is canon or not (I should verify this) but the gods/lords/giants (not sure how much of those three apply to each other either or if they are even all the same thing, really) seem to hold a certain disdain towards humans, so I am assuming there was a certain amount of oppression present (Seath's kidnapping maidens for example).

      I am thus questioning whether or not the firstborn's "mistake" was truly a mistake or just a mstake in the Gods' eyes, in the end. Maybe he took pity on humanity and erased the oh so precious knowledge about their forefather, the Dark Soul, and all that may pertain to them. With Seath's descent into madness, the Witch of Izalith's transformation into the Bed of Chaos, Gwyn's hollowing as he linked the fire, there would soon be no one to remember the one who shattered a Great Soul to bring forth an entire people. As such, all that remains is vague memories of both of them, the myths distorted through time.

      (This, 99% speculation as it may be, is better than my other far more farfetched theory that Artorias might be the firstborn XD I'm not going to go into detail about that one, it was based on the fact that he succumbed to the abyss before gwyn could learn the identity of the mysterious hero who defeated Manus, and in his need to stop the Age of Dark he probably thought he would similarly have to confront the abyss. Yeah, not very coherent, I know)

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    • Hai, I know I'm not really as active on the wikia as other people, but... hai, long time no sees.

      So what if crossbreed priscilla is like the Ancient Dragon, in the sense that two souls created her...

      So what if King Vendrick is the Firstborn (no clue what I'm saying)

      Also, doesn't Priscilla also drop twin humanities? Thats kinda my reason to think that she may have been made from two souls, by Seath, or maybe from only a piece of his soul kinda like Gwyn split his. (1:05 am, eyes and head hurting for a few hours now :P) so goodnight ~

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    • Hereticalthoughts wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Do the channelers like have there way with the women they capture for experiments? 

      Good God, I hope not.

      Far as can be inferred, they're pretty much just lab assistants/guards/agents for Seath, there's nothing said about them wanting to... 'mate' with their captives.

      lol would be interesting if they did, but i don't understand why it has to be females that gets captured for these experiments. 

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