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  • Matsczon
    Matsczon closed this thread because:
    Preventing further necroposts.
    12:25, November 9, 2017

    Something I've never truly understood about the Occult path is that any weapon upgraded down this path becomes "a weapon to hunt the gods". However, if these are "unholy" weapons, then why do they give you better Faith scaling than Divine ("holy") weapons?? Faith would normally be attributed to worshiping a god (or Lords, in this case) no? So the biggest question, then, is: who (or what) is the Occult path attributed to?

    Perhaps the Divine and Occult weapons represent the struggle between Light and Dark to dominate the other. Divine weapons would be used to hunt down agents of the Dark, and vice versa for Occult. This might be possible, considering the Church of Thoruland, agents of the Lords and the Light, hid the Occult ember, a vital tool to aide the Dark, in the Painted World of Ariamis, a world separate from this struggle.

    What do you guys think?

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    • idk, dont rlly get wat the advantages of occult are, but i have a theory that the occult they worship is the dark lord xD

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    • obvious, but what really bugs me is that divine and occult mdifier, what does that really does?

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    • I believe the occult modifier makes it do more damage against god type enemies. Or I could be making stuff up out of thin air. Who knows? And I know the divine modifier makes it "holy" so it can kill skelies without revive in the Catacombs.

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    • Yep that's the only thing I know about divine weapons.

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    • Yeah, the Occult modifier supposedly does more damage to enemies associated with a god, such as the Silver and Black Knights.

      Another question, but more to do with in-game: Does using a divine weapon in the Tomb of the Giants perma-kill the big skeletons and skeletal dogs?

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    • The doggies and giga skelies perma-die no matter what weapon is used to kill them in the Tomb of the Giants. But, while fighting Nito the HOST must kill the giga skelies that are with Nito with a divine weapon or they'll keep reviving. I say host because as a phantom I can never get them to stay dead even with my Divine Claymore +10.

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    • Wait, I think I misunderstood the context of "perma-die". I assumed that it meant that once dead, they didn't respawn at all. Oops...

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    • No they'll still respawn. I just say perma-die because it's just what came to mind.

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    • i thought those were more gorillas than doggies

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    • No, they have stumpy tails. Gorillas don't. Either way, they still hurt when they hit.

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    • Have you been hit by their attack where they stand on their hind legs then just practically fall on you? Does so much damage, if not a kill. I hate them. But Tomb of the Giants is my favorite area in the game pretty much.

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    • Yes, I have. In addition to that attack, I hate the four bite combo. So annoying if you're not blocking. So far, my favourite area is the Demon Ruins, because the Taurus and Capra Demons there are so easy!

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    • My second favorite would be the Painted World. Then either Lost Izalith or the Demon Ruins. My least favorite by far is Darkroot. I just hate the entire Darkroot area. The a-hole invaders don't help much.

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    • Least favourite for me would have to be the Duke's Archives. All those crystallised hollows, and the magic-spamming Channellers. *Sigh*

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    • Ooh Duke's Archives didn't even cross my mind when I was thinking of least favorites. That woud be a close second if not a first , to Darkroot.

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    • I like darkroot... but my favorite will always be the painted world.

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    • I love the painted world. I'm farming some Souvenirs there right now. I'm still wondering if the church of Thorolund had something to do with the Occult Ember being stored there though.

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    • probably... since they say the occult power can kill the gods they worship. Also that explains why priscilla is there.

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    • Well, yeah, they did, because looking at the Dark Ember's description, it says that "the church long hid the forbidden black ember, and no living blacksmith knows of it". I reckon "the church" refers to the Church of Thorolund, because it's the only religious organisation with "church" in it's name.

      @Cain: We can tell you love the Painted World, or maybe just one particular inhabitant of it, at least. ;)

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    • Cain: Well I think Priscilla is there for being a Crossbreed, not for revolting against the gods.

      Volknur: Well, I guess I should've read the ember description first. I fail!

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    • yes that's the main reason, she did never nor wanted to revolt, but she has the power to kill one god if she wanted. Even tough she's a fragile boss, guess she vaven't spent too much points on vitality.

      Volknur: why you.. are right.

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    • She stings like a wasp if she gets the bleed affect on you though. I just faced her today on my Paladin character, he died once and almost died on the second attempt. But I gave up on getting her tail and just killed her.

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    • care for a tip? use a weak weapon to break her poise, and use the strong weapon to cut her tail, also do not lock-on her.

      (with that tatic I got her tail on the first try ;D).

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    • Update: According to the Effigy Shield description, there was actually an attempted revolution by the "followers of the occult" against the "gods" (presumedly Gwyn, his kin, and the other Lords). In this "ill-fated" revolution, these followers attempted to steal the power of Nito. Perhaps this is why Pinwheel was in the Catacombs, because he was one of the occult followers?

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    • maaaaaybe

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    • idk, i think they just went their seperate ways, nito to the other dead, seath to crytsal caves an dukes archives, daughters of izalith aswell

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    • Alright, I have absolutely nothing to back this theory up, other than the fact that the followers of Velka use Occult weapons, but here goes:

      I personally believe that Velka created the Dark Ember for the purpose of punishing gods that she deemed as sinners. Without the Dark Ember the steel of her followers would be far less effective, perhaps even useless against the gods while they were in their prime. This could explain why Occult weapons have better Faith scaling than Divine weapons, as the people that wield them place their faith in Velka, and Velka alone, so that they might mete out punishment to "sinners".

      Again, I don't have much to back this theory up.

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    • Poised Electron: Watch this lore video about velka.... I found it to be extremely interesting  along with the rest of the guys videos about Dark Souls as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL0n1S6_VgM

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    • I'm still curious about Velka's connection with crows. Where did that come from? And why do we believe the harpies are followers of Velka?

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    • The Kanji used to describe Velka's hair means Crow. 

      Velka is the Goddess of Sin. Dark Ember produces Occult. Velka Rapier is an Occult Weapon. Harpies drop Ears, an item for Darkmoon which was originally Velka's Covenant. Harpies, Dark Ember, Velka follower all have commonality this way. Hence, Velka hunts sinning gods as well as sinners. Also, since Priscilla was originally a "Heroine", literally titled such in the game files, there is even a stronger connection there. And it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think the Giant Crow is an agent of Velka seeking to fulfill the Undead Prophecy to which I hazard a guess is Velka's prophecy.

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    • Also, there are many lore references lost in translation. If you read transliterated(Read: not translated) FuturePress artbook scans their are a fewtidbits of lore that are lost in our version of the game.

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    • I am inclined to agree with Frisson's theory that the Undead Prophecy was Velka's prophesy. Considering she is a "rogue diety" who permits, or encourages, her followers to punish even other gods, it stands to reason that she may have manipulated the Darkwraiths, Primordial Serpents, and the Chosen Undead (plural) into killing the gods/lords.

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    • Speaking of occult weapons why does Havle need the occult club he has the dragon tooth isnt that enought for him the dragon tooth one shots me every time so why?

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    • well, we don't know that the Occult Club is his. it is only suggested by the fact that it is found in such close proximity to his equipment, dropped by a Mimic. if it was his, then it suggests that he had need to assault the gods, but not only that, was able to tame the Mimic.

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    • But I dont understand why attack the gods I thought he had a strong distaste for Seath, but why go throught the extra trouble just to take out Seath

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    • Well, Gwyn did give Seath, a figure whom Havel loathed, a dukedom for his assistance during the war with the Dragons. Perhaps Havel lost faith in the competency of Gwyn and the Lords to rule?

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    • thanks that clears things up

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    • Hmm, so there may be a link between Havel and the "ill-fated plot to destroy the gods" you think? It's not a strong link, but the idea is interesting, and Havel would've been a strong and influential addition to the cult.

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    • Do you think there are other members in this cult that we know about like velka, there are tons of items related to velka in the painted world where things that were a risk to the gods were locked away

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    • @Jarcellon: Havel would, at least, have a motive for attempting revolution against the Lords. But I agree, it is a stretch at best.

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    • Do you think there are other members in the cult that we don't know about. I was thinking Velka might be a member due to the tons of items that are related to her in the painted world and we know that in the painted world tools dangerous to the gods were placed. also due to havel being a bishop of the way of light most likely, he would have known about the dark ember location.

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    • sorry about the first coment being a mirror image of the 2nd one some funky things were happing on my computer but read the 2nd, more info.

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    • Sorry about there being two of the same message posted here my internet has been doing some funky stuff recently.

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    • gettin' funkehr!

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    • You can't kill a god unless you have faith that it exist? Faith is more than just religious, i think, its faith in yourself, faith that you are able to move on, to survive, to find a happy ending even when there is no happy endings to be found... Faith that somehow, a miracle will happen and everything will be fine, its faith that makes the sane undead resist the hollowing... It is needed faith to believe that the gods will help you, but its needed even more faith to fight against a god, faith that you are doing the right thing, not hatred towards the gods, but courage. Faith to even suppose you can fight against something so powerful... Such as the Final Boss in Dark Souls.

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    • I reckon Velka tried to invade the Painted World of Aramis and they just about stoped her getting the power of lifehunt because they were protecting Priscilla. The place looks like a total warzone and there is definitely a mix of enemies that could be divided in to two classes the ones related to Velka - crows and the remains of a confessor which we get the equipment from. Then you have the pyromancers and the normal hollowed undead along with the painting guardians. Even when you look at the phalanx they're in a total defensive formation as if they're expecting an attack from ground or air (those crow screcching things). The dragons were possibly there to protect Priscilla as well and one is even doing it after death or perhaps they were seeking lifehunt themselves, either way the place looks like the aftermatch of a warzone with fires, corpses impaled, dead bodies, collapsed buldings...

      Maybe we arrive during a lull and Velka is readying another wave? Or maybe Velka got a hold of the dark ember and left the world of Aramis with her minions trapped caught in a stalemate. Priscilla keeps to inside the twoer and believes everything outside to be fine not realising the danger she actually poses in creating weapons capable fot aking down Gods ie. Occult

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    • Ahem. I personally believe that the Painted World is a prison for that which might kill the giants. They lock crows demons in, as they are like Velka, who is a "rogue giant" or indeed, a true deity. They lock in Priscilla because: 1) Lifehunt, and 2) Half Dragon. Might be making quarter dragon babies all over the place. And there cannot be a war, as Priscilla describes it as a "Peaceful land". Not only that, but we never see the occupants fighting. And, instead of sending in the weakest enemies in the game, why not just send Ornstein, or Gough, to defend her? 

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    • As a huge lore junkie I figured I would contribute: 

      I do not believe that the Faith stat refers to the lords giving the person power, I believe the church (Thorolund) wants everyone to believe that so they can stay in power, but personally I think its just another form of magic that derives its power from confidence rather than willpower and focus (Which are 3 very very similar things, no?) 

      Next, Havel was indeed leading, or attempting to lead, a revolt. He hid his most secret weapon in a mimic in a dark room next to a spare set of armor and shield, this would be his armory. it is well hidden, and the fact that the club is in a mimic shows how desperate he was to keep this a secret. 

      Gwyn noticed, but he was still very indebted to Havel for all he did with his soldiers during their uprising against the dragons, so instead of just killing him he locked him away in a tower where he was destined to just go hollow and live out his days, I think he did this so he wouldn't feel guilty. 

      The painted world of Ariamis is dedicated to things that the gods fear, typically things associated with Velka, since she is a ruthless rouge godess who will punish any who sin. What was the god's sin, you might ask? 

      I have waivered back and fourth on this, and I have wondered a lot, the fact that this covenant is associated with the biggest douchebags in the game doesn't help my opinion...

      Their sin was prolonging the flame and the age of light. This is why ALL gods must die. Now, this is sort of related to Dark Souls 2, but I could go on about my theories there all day. I will say this: Even though the god's did sin with their greed and selfishness, we do not know if it was justified. We don't know if Frampt or Kaathe's version of what is happening is correct. Is the dark spreading the curse, or is the curse spreading to help fulfill the prophecy so that the Age of Man can occur? Manus would certainly lead us to believe the Dark is bad for humanity, but his actions were when the Age of Fire was still going strong (at least much stronger than it is now)

      I'll end this rantish comment with one last question: Is Velka truly a symbol of justice, does she truly care about the natural order of things and repentance, or is she doing all of these things out of self-interest? 

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    • Sorry for interrupting the huge lore discussion, but I heard that Divine weapons do extra damage against invaders, and Occult weapons do more damage when the user is invading another world. Can someone confirm this for me?

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    • I have a theory as to why Occult has better scaling than divine weapons in faith.

      In divine weapons, you place faith in the gods and they reward you. But say, like Havel, they do something that you hate. Well, to hate something, you must love it first. It's like real-life atheists. Most Christians don't read their bibles fully. They understand the major parts, Jesus, God, yadda yadda, but don't see all the little things. Atheists do. They see how God has done some questionable things, and that love they originally have turns to ire because they feel betrayed. Or they see that there's too many contradictions, or it makes no sense. Same thing here. But because the gods are most definitely real, they don't stop believing, they turn against the gods. They started out faithful, but because of the Gods betraying them in some way, they betray the gods.

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    • The point of Divine and Occult weapons are obviously to add Faith Scaling, we can't just not give Faith builds anything to go with, that's just not fair.

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    • The Occult was likely started by Havel who felt betrayed by his gods after Seath was granted dukedom and his archives and his questionable experiments.

      Attach the Ringed City DLC and it really makes sense why after proving himself to Gwyn and his knights to be a mkst formidable human worshipper and warrior, he was disgusted that humans for there reward for service against the Dragons, were basically imprisoned on the edge of the earth and cursed. While Seath a dragon with traitorous blood, was made all but a Lord in his own right.

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    • This thread has gotten Necro-posted a lot over the years. Can I get a close thread please? XD

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